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At that point I thought, Something needs to be done about this. The trouble continued. Elam could see the truth. Nobody else could see. While the issues of paternity rights and the destruction of the family would come later, Elam's transition from counselor to pseudo-civil rights hero grew naturally out of his prior life. He recites a litany of charges against modern psychotherapy, its anti-masculine focus on effusively articulated feelings.

If one dismisses for a moment the bizarre unreality of men subject to brutal gendered discrimination, it doesn't sound terribly different, in sense or scope of conspiracy, than the complaints of feminist academics so often mocked by men of Elam's kind. Because a lame man recognizes that we are walking straight, while a lame mind says that it is we who are limping. Elam isn't without his objectivity.

Unlike Max, he knows, for example, that his position is a rare one. Elam is not convinced that most people normal people; the women in his office, if there were women in his office take his crusades as common sense and only don't say so out of fear. His manner gives rise to a suspicion that he has been lonely a long time, not in the literal way, but self-consciously stranded in a shrinking section of the world. He is committed in part to his work because if more ground is lost, he will be lonelier still.

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If more ground is lost, there may not be room at all. Men are suffering, he says. He is suffering, but he doesn't say that outright. All of it breeds a certain paranoia, one I encountered in all the men I spoke to. A feeling likely justified by the ordinary reaction to men's rights activism, that outsiders, especially outsiders writing for mainstream publications, are not to be trusted. That they agreed to speak to me at all remains surprising, especially in Max's case: He is friendly, willing to sit down, but insistent that his identity be protected. He seems, like so many zealots, to believe at once that he is righteous and vital and also that speaking out under his own name will bring unsavory consequences beyond his willingness to suffer.

At one point during our conversation, Elam says: "I'm just going to be frank with you, I've been through countless interviews with the media. Indeed, none of the men I spoke to about these issues are anything but friendly, almost eager to persuade. I suspect that this is because I am, despite everything, a straight white man. To Elam, and to Max, I am a heretic, but I am not an infidel.

I can still be saved. I see Max again a few nights after our first meeting. I relate some of my conversation with Elam, and Max is quick to echo his bafflement. We're just these angry, hateful dudes, you know? Like, we can't get laid, we hate women, all of that. There's a temptation, brought on by the claustrophobia of extended conversation, a bit by empathy, and a bit by drink, to be taken in by the spirit of the argument. Men face certain social difficulties idiosyncratic to our sex, and while they are not systemic in the way that women's issues are, nor half so severe, I find it easy to sympathize with Max's frustration.

In that moment I can, if I like, forget that these issues, legitimate enough on their face, are carried out from a place of one-upmanship, that their expressions, except in rare cases, are solely as debating points, hurled between invective and harassment and the oldest hack tropes about women's bodies and choices.

I can forget those things, if I like. I'm only a heretic. A presentation at last summer's International Conference on Men's Issues.

The internet is full of men who hate feminism. Here's what they're like in person.

We can't even see how far it's gone yet," he says. He is almost starry-eyed while saying it, his voice quieter, slightly higher. Sincerity isn't quite the word so much as it's performance. Max knows how to tone the romantic's innermost profundity.

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Perhaps he doesn't do it consciously, but he's stealing from the movies all the same. At once ideological, forceful to the point of edgy outsider charm, and eminently reasonable, asking only for a consensus over what any fool can see. It isn't surprising that this seduces so many young men. It's all terribly reasonable, until it isn't. Max's reaction is immediate: "This is crazy," he says a few times. I know people who say this isn't about race, but I don't get it. Like, this is obvious racism. Then they'd actually be oppressed. And I believe all of this and I come to you, a men's rights activist, and say I want to get involved and help.

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Shouldn't I be concerned that a lot of people on your side don't seem to be doing legal or political work so much as sending death threats? No, Max says. The extreme behavior is mainstream in feminism these days, not in the men's rights movement. Elam claims much the same thing.

When we had a conference on men's issues in Detroit, there was a demonstration, pressure on the hotel to shut us down. We eventually had to change venues. How much of what is really going on are you paying attention to, sir? Max never asks me that question outright, but I can hear it, minus the "sir," beneath a lot of what he says.

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I ask about the harassment of feminists — of women in general, on the street, in their homes, by classmates and strangers. How much is he paying attention to, for that matter?

He shrugs it off. But it's not, like, organized, anyway.

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Guys catcalling don't have meetings to plan it. Years ago I was standing on a metro platform with a woman I knew. It was around 3 in the morning; we'd walked a mile to our train. She says it's the first time she's gone that stretch of road without being catcalled. I ask why. The answer is obvious.

She says most men won't do it if the woman looks like she's with her owner. Other headlines coincide with our time together. Max blames both on religious extremism and says he can't understand why "the good Muslims" don't denounce terrorism. Extreme behavior is a sore spot for any movement, and nobody is more forgivable than one's own.

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Max concedes that some MRAs and associated activists go too far. You can criticize these people, you can try to debate them, but threats are way out there. So does he denounce the violent elements on any of his forums?